Leadership Without Certainty: Pragmatic Talks Interview
Three Myths Holding Leaders Back
In this Pragmatic Talks conversation with host Wiktor Żołnowski at the Agile by Example conference in Warsaw, Poland—where Pete had just delivered a keynote—the hour-long discussion challenges fundamental assumptions about leadership, vulnerability, and organizational culture.
Myth 1: Great Leaders Are Born
While some innate capabilities help people rise faster, personality traits don't determine better leadership. Organizations promote extroverts over introverts and assertive people over accommodative ones. Yet research shows introverts often make better leaders in complex environments.
"It's not the assertiveness or the accommodativeness that makes you a better leader—it's the balance," Pete explains.
Leadership isn't born. It's made. But it takes work.
Myth 2: Leaders Make the Right Decisions
In today's world, there is no right decision. Strategy A or B? Work from home or the office? There's no right, no wrong.
Better leadership doesn't mean making the right decision. It means being more aware, choosing more consciously, then reflecting: Did that work? What can I learn?
"It's a learning cycle where I'm constantly getting better because I'm constantly seeking data."
Myth 3: Leadership Comes from Titles
Pete recounts employees who would say, "I want that role, that title." His response? "You're not demonstrating you're doing it." Their reply: "Well, if I get the title then I'll do it."
That's not how it works. You get rewarded when you show it. Leadership is all about relationship—not everybody needs the title to be a leader.
From "I Know" to "Maybe I Don't"
About 90% of leaders operate from an "I know" mentality. In complex environments where teams develop things never built before, this mindset shuts others out.
What feels counterintuitive proves most powerful: "I don't know" or "I may not be right" or "I've got an idea but I'm open to others."
Brené Brown calls this "the courage to be vulnerable." That becomes the activator for engagement, empowerment, and better decisions.
"The best leaders we're seeing today are making that shift—from 'I know' to 'maybe I don't.' In one sense it feels weak and vulnerable, but it's probably the most powerful shift we can make."
Culture as Shadow
Edgar Schein describes culture and leadership as two sides of the same coin. You cannot separate them.
Pete offers a memorable metaphor: Culture is like a shadow. You can see it, sense it, but can't touch or change it directly. You can only influence it through other things—governance policies, structures, roles, and how leaders show up every day.
The work isn't changing culture directly. It's making visible the tensions culture reflects and learning to manage them.
Where Change Really Happens
When discussing transformational leaders like Satya Nadella, Pete pushes back on the idea that change can only come from the CEO. The most senior leaders have the most risk, the farthest to fall.
"We actually see more change happen where it's activated by lower layers of the organization. I think the people listening to this podcast are the activators, the catalysts."
Watch the full interview
Recorded December 19, 2023 at Agile by Example Conference, Warsaw, Poland. Pragmatic Talks is produced by Pragmatic Coders.
Pete Behrens | Leadership Insights
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